Friday
Jul012011
Armstrong And Viele, Trolls, Our Silence, And My Apology: Where Do We Go From Here?
Friday, July 1, 2011 
Heather Armstrong and I in San Francisco in 2008
A troll is "...someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community... with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion." If you haven't felt the magic taint of a troll on your own blog, you've at least likely seen a troll in action somewhere else on the internet, be it on another's blog, on Twitter or Facebook, or in a discussion forum. I know I have.
I have been visited by trolls five times that I can clearly remember: two times the trolls were people I knew in real life who decided to openly insult me in my weblog comments, one time I was treated to violent threats by strangers over an article I wrote on another website, in another incident a past online acquaintance resurfaced to insult all and sundry on my Facebook wall, and the fifth time the troll was a man who vigorously defended his plagiarism of my work. My experience is limited in a world where some people receive this kind of treatment on a daily basis, but, still, I have felt the special anti-joy that only a troll can bring, and, let me tell you, it does not foster the happy.
I am not here to argue who is or who is not a troll in the public battle between Armstrong and Viele, but when Heather stood up for herself against poor public reporting from both Rowan Davies at guardian.co.uk and Viele on Twitter, both of whom criticized her for what they termed Armstrong's "poverty tourism" on her recent trip in service of the charitable organization Every Mother Counts (see Suebob and Mom-101's excellent rebuttals to the criticism), it struck a chord with me that started a small avalanche of realizations about trolls and my past behavior with regard to them:
- We falsely cast experiences of anything that happens on the internet as inferior to experiences of anything that happen off the internet, even though actions in both places bear demonstrable effects upon actual human beings.
- It has felt as though I am being sucker-punched in the gut by each troll that I have experienced, which is not at all unlike the real life bullies I have experienced.
- Remaining silent about those who bullied me offline, whether it was in elementary school or in a work environment, never stopped the bullying and, in fact, lead to a continuance of that abuse over years of my life.
- Trolls, who by any other name would be bullies, can be a serious matter, and if we discourage silence about offline bullies, it does not make much sense to then encourage silence when it comes to online trolls.
What I need to come clean about, though, is not that I've been bullied and had trolls. On or off the internet, most of us have been bullied at some point or another. What I need to come clean about is the terrible advice about trolls which I have given out to friends in the past.
There are a number of you who have come to me when you've had issues with trolls. You've come to me when trolls have persisted in attacking you publicly, when they have unloaded nastiness into your email inbox, and when they have gone so far as to contact other people you know in an effort to undermine your reputation, and I gave you what advice I thought I had to give.
I told you what so many of us have parroted to each other over the years: don't feed the trolls. I told you to ignore them, to refuse to acknowledge them publicly, to not even give them the satisfaction of admitting out loud how they affected you. I told you to take the higher road and carry on as though they didn't exist.
I think the don't-feed-the-trolls advice we often adhere to stems from the fact that we pay too much heed to the currency of internet traffic. We encourage silence in the face of online bullying as though that will rob them of the attention that traffic brings, like we are denying a plant its water. In some cases, this tactic can work. It has worked for me in a couple of instances, but not all trolls are the same. If you try to starve a troll of traffic who thinks that 50 visitors is monumental, your silence won't work. Also, some trolls really do take pleasure in hurting you and you specifically without regard for how many people see it, like that girl in grade four who treated me so sweetly in front of others but left black welts on my arms and legs when no one was looking.
Sometimes not feeding the troll amounts to silencing and isolating a victim.
As Sweetney so eloquently stated it: "...we're writers who're slowly being trained and groomed to be gutless and stay silent when we should most stand up and say something, for fear of making ourselves targets." I believe that a path paved by fear is a dangerous one, and more and more I am coming to believe that it is silence that lends the trolls their backbones.
To those who have come to me when they have experienced online trolls, I apologize not only for oversimplifying a complex situation but also for encouraging your silence in the face of abuse. I have downplayed the depth of your experiences and have inadvertently worked to cover up injustice against you. I did you a disservice. I told you what was easy for me to say. I told you what required the least amount of action from me.
I am so sorry.
Maybe, instead of quietly willing it away, we should follow the advice we give to our children and choose to speak out when someone is hurting us or doing something wrong.
Maybe we've been thieving our own agency by counselling silence.
If you need to be heard, shout about it. If you need to share your story, if someone else might benefit from hearing your words, pound that mother out on your keyboard. Bring what's dark out into the light.
I am no expert on bullies and trolls — if I knew how to put a swift end to a bully's behaviour, my life would look remarkably different — so I want to hear from you about the issue:
- Why do we encourage silence when it comes to online trolling among adults when we encourage speaking out against bullying among children and adolescents both online and off?
- In an environment that thrives on the concept of freedom of speech, how do we know when an individual's behaviour has crossed the line of bad taste or ignorance?
- How can we deal with bullies and trolls if and when an attempt to starve them of attention doesn't work to make them lose interest?
- Have you had to deal with a troll, and how did you handle it? How did others react to what happened to you?
categorized in writing and blogging and tagged in Anna Viele, Heather Armstrong, abdpbt, apologies, apology, bullies, bullying, dooce, poverty tourism, poverty tourist, trolling, trolls
writing and blogging and tagged in Anna Viele, Heather Armstrong, abdpbt, apologies, apology, bullies, bullying, dooce, poverty tourism, poverty tourist, trolling, trolls 
Reader Comments (64)
Fortunately I'm small enough of a fish that I escape the notice of trolls but that doesn't mean I don't go grizzly bear angry when I see others affected. I think that you might be right; that the 'ignore it and it will go away' school of thought only adds to their power. I'm not an astute enough netizen to know how to get them to grow up or how to police them. If only there was a way to have them suffer repercussions for their actions. Maybe swing the pendulum the other way? Out them loudly as a troll, almost like a wanted poster? Reverse peer pressure? That would certainly run counterintuitive to how we've all been raise, 'If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.' but desperate times call for desperate measures. Whatever happened to civil discourse, agreeing to disagree. Why does it have to be all or nothing?
The internet is a community/society and a society without rules is destined to fall. To quote Jason Priestly in 'Tombstone', "I'm sorry sheriff but we've got to have some laws!". (Yeah, I just punched myself in the head too.)
So thoughtful. Thank you. I have to think about this a lot more and maybe come back and comment on all you wrote, but my first thought in terms of my reaction when others are attacked online is that I often stay silent. Sometimes, I think I don't know the whole story and that's best. But sometimes I have my own selfish fears about attracting attacks or being accused of jumping into the drama for attention. It's a hard line to walk. I have seen bloggers (as a whole) heap on the praise for speaking up and I have seen it turn and become "why are you all adding to the drama, you just want clicks."
As for me, I like music videos as a response. My kids and I made a lovely one to Taylor Swift's "Mean" for an anonymous joykiller a few weeks ago. It was very freeing.
There are a number of different kinds of trolls. Let me see if I can suss them out:
The Jealous Troll - this troll won't admit that their life is crap, but they fixate on trying to tear the good stuff in your life down. I know this one, because I have done this and have written about it before.
Jealous Troll variation 2: They know their life is crap and want you to apologize for having it better. These are the people that gave The Bloggess a hard time about spending $100 on a metal chicken - "You're insensitive for writing about spending that money on something stupid when there are people out there who are having a hard time feeding their families!!!"
Sociopath Troll: They just like to destroy things. They find your sensitive spot and kick you while you are down. Queen of Spain and Overflowing Brain have gotten these when they admitted they had chronic illnesses - the sociopaths piled on and said nice things about how they wished they would die etc.
Larcenous Troll - They feel for some reason they have entitlement to your life and/or work. They may impersonate you, steal your words, photos, or pass off your life experiences as theirs, usually with little remorse.
Shit-Stirring Troll - I think this is Anna's forte, and I think she does it for the traffic. She's making money off it, and it seems like she enjoys stirring trouble anyway, so it all works together for her benefit.
Creepy Troll - This is probably a version of Jealous Troll, but this is the person who fixates on you and can't get off. I think this is one of the most disturbing, because they can be very persistent and can wreak havoc because they often have no sense of boundaries or legalities.
Woman-hating Male Troll - these are a special breed of sociopaths who seem to delight in terrorizing women, in crude name-calling and in direct or indirect threats of violence.
I think that there need to be different tactics for dealing with different trolls, as some are more dangerous than others. For instance, Jealous Trolls can probably be called on their BS without much harm, but Creepy Trolls and Woman-Hating Trolls should be monitored, not fed with attention, and reported if need be. Shit-Stirrers should be called out and not linked to or clicked on, because they THRIVE on the traffic.
I have probably missed some types, but I'm tired of typing now!
It's horrible - HORRIBLE - to watch one of these things build, because I feel so powerless to stop it. And I, we, ARE powerless to halt it, because someone with what seems to be a fairly clear-cut personality disorder isn't going to listen to well-reasoned arguments or polite requests. And that person also isn't going to respond to outrage and threats. They thrive on it, all of it, as long as attention is paid. But yeah, ignoring it and letting it continue not healthy for the victims or the bystanders. I don't know that there are solutions.
I sometimes wish the internet had a time out button or penalty box, where someone acting badly would at least be silenced for a short bit, until the next new shiny thing comes along.
I don't know anything about the argument between Dooce and Viele, so I offer only my own observations. I have seen @QueenOfSpain viciously stalked by what I would call a dangerous troll--someone who threatened her in very real ways. Years ago, I was cyber-stalked and trolled by a whole bunch of Anna Nicole armchair detectives. They actually ran a background report on me, started anti-Jane websites, and posted my personal info.
That's brutal trolling and there should be a better, faster cure.
OTOH, I've seen people called "trolls" (at sites like Aiming Low & Her Bad Mother) when I did not think the comments amounted to more than an oppositional viewpoint or disagreement with something the author wrote. I might not necessarily agree with "the troll" that's posting but I'm way more turned off by the response of the bloggers, which seems to assign "troll" status to anyone that questions something they wrote. Legions then seem to join in the fun of bashing the "troll", therefore pretty much guaranteeing that a lack of honest, diverse comments.
Then there are twitter accounts like @true_insolence which seem to delight in slamming various bloggers anonymously. I don't consider him/her a troll, just perhaps someone who's too cowardly to step up to the plate and give their opinions honestly and openly.
I think just criticism or differing views are important to the integrity of any blog or writer. Personally, I'm not fond of getting nothing but praise. It makes me think/grow/consider when people offer up something more than a "you're great, your blog is wonderful" comment. Unfortunately, those people who dare to speak up are rare -- possibly because they fear being labeled "trolls". I don't know. I shut comments off quite some time ago because I became disenchanted with all the unspoken rules.
I have someone who writes a nasty comment at least once a week, and I delete it. I'm pretty sure it is one of the people who runs one of those twitter sites. This has been going on for several months, and when I mention it online, people mostly scold me for even bringing it up. Here is this person's comment from this week:
"I'm still amazed anyone gives a shit what you say. You spend 90% of your tme online acting like a dumbass, which makes me wonder if you really are that stupid, or if you just like APPEARING stupid. You ramble pretty much incoherently. How is that entertaining? And your self deprecating schtick is so very overdone. Go away. Please!"
Sometimes, I feel as though the individuals criticizing the person targeted by the troll for "stooping to their level" can come across a bit trolly themselves. It's hard to know how to handle a "difficult" person, or a bully, or whatever you want to call them. The last thing anyone needs is to be publicly corrected or critiqued when attempting to do so.
It is very frustrating to see bloggers I respect being attacked.
One of the nice things about being under the radar in the blogging community is that I've rarely attracted a troll. There was one person who said my niece (who was probably 6 at the time) was going to start shooting heroin because I gave her an Evanescence CD for her birthday. I used my blogger's privilege to delete and block.
The only other person who ever posts comments that sound troll-y is my own sister and I know she's kidding.
I've never been very good at letting people smack me and just turning my cheek - it makes me feel like a dirty Christian. Having said that, I'm better at it now that I've moved past the quirky rule that I need to let all comments stand. I don't know why that was a value of mine for so long. When I left mean comments up, they drove me crazy and I eventually responded. But when it finally occurred to me that it's okay to delete comments that do nothing more than say mean shit about me, now they hardly bother me. With Squarespace on my phone, bullshit comments are deleted before the site's even loaded again. (I also like Squarespace because you can edit comments. Sometimes, I change the trolls' nasty shit into a bunch of nice, complimentary praise. I just steal their voice. It's MY site.)
My most persistent troll finally left me alone after I traced him to a dating site, signed up as a woman, started an affair with him, waited till he was in love, and then told him he had a hard on for BLACK HOCKEY JESUS.
To hunt trolls, you need to think like a troll.
BHJ, you rock my world.
I feel many days like I get more than my fair share of trolls. I have a couple of twitter accounts who spend large sums of time mocking me openly. I've asked them politely to stop, I've blocked them, I've done everything I can think of, and yet, they persist. I have similar issues with a few commenters. It is really truly draining. It's hard to read awful things about yourself over and over and they never fail to gang up when I'm having the hardest time.
For me, silence has worked mostly better than anything else. It doesn't mean that it doesn't still hurt like hell, but I now delete comments that are meant to be mean. I don't delete comments that disagree, I delete ones that are there to be unkind and offer nothing to the conversation. I try not to point out the trolls because for mine, it really does seem to feed them.
I think that it's most important to remember that the trolls are the problem. They are the ones with issues. No one is perfect, but the person who goes out of their way to be unkind is the one who is wrong, always. Don't let them make you think or feel otherwise.
I think we've all said this to each other for years, because we thought it was best. I don't think you need to apologize for it. For a time, it seemed the best move. I don't believe it is anymore. I think it's time to stand up for ourselves and our friends....and not care when "they" then resort to telling everyone that we sent our "lynch mob" after them. Screw it.
Nothing can change if we sit by and let it happen over and over again.
I had the distinct displeasure of enduring the abuse of trolls for the first time when my book got published. I did my best to respond to some of them with unfailing kindness, or at the very least civility, and found it to be effective.
For the ones who were having way too much fun being cruel, however? There really wasn't anything to do other than ignore them. Some people delight in petty inhumanity, and it's not my job to fix them. The best I can do is comport myself publicly in a respectable way, and try really hard not to read the unkind comments.
I think the problem is that just as with bullying at school, NOTHING works. Ignoring it doesn't work, and neither does tattling.
I think the other problem it seems like there are such different situations, depending on who is being attacked and who is doing the attacking. If the unpopular kid at school is being picked on by the popular kids, that's a different kind of bullying than if a popular kid is picking on another popular kid and a feud results. In one case, the sides are so unevenly matched, it doesn't matter what the weaker party does. In the other case, it's more of a battle (with soldiers, even) than a bullying situation.
I've been blogging for 9 years and have never had a troll. I've only deleted one or two comments, mostly from people getting nasty with other commenters. I sort of have a "live and let live" attitude about the whole thing. To hurt me deeply you have to know me deeply, and I just don't think that's possible based on the stuff I kind of stuff I tend to post. I don't mind disagreement, I encourage conversation, and if someone takes umbrage with what I have to say, they are free to move along. I save my ire for real-life trolls, like the people who call me "nigger" to my face in the town where I live.
One thing that is sort of getting overlooked in this situation, something that I think is valid, is that in the world of blogging, you're either a sycophant or a troll. There's rarely a middle ground for people who just DISAGREE, either with a person or an idea. I applaud Heather for defending herself; Anna Viele seems like bad news all around. But I also think Heather went a little too far with her comments to Davies, who seemed open to discussing the article in a civil manner, where Heather just seemed to be in full-on rage mode. It's hard to find venues where you can say that and not be considered a troll.
And I forgot the third kind: where a popular kid at school is getting hate mail. That again has its own issues, separate from the other kinds.
There are so many shades of grey -- what is valid criticism? What if valid criticism is communicated in a nasty or snarky way? Does it matter what the power/traffic dynamic is between the troll/critical person and the blogger/public figure/celebrity?
FYI I am not a blogger, so I really have no dog in this fight.
There are trolls -- it's easy to categorize some, who threaten physical violence or other clearly illegal activity. There are people who seem to have no point other than to be nasty. There are also people who make a valid (or at least honest) point but do so in a less-than-sweet way. Even a downright mean way. Is the response the same to all?
And though I hate to see trolling or nasty comments, it really makes me uncomfortable when the target is a very high-traffic, big name blogger and that target then brings all the force of their blog and their many, many followers to bear. It feels like reverse bullying. Maybe it is warranted given the circumstances. But I'm not so sure.
I don't know where we go from here. I hope it's a conversation we can continue to have. However, it's frankly odd to comment here after seeing what Black Hockey Jesus wrote above about thinking like a troll, because as you know speaking out about his traffic bating against fat people in general and Jen Lancaster in particular (probably about a year ago?) was my experience with standing up against ridiculous community tolerance for trolling. I don't know about him in particular now, perhaps he and I can sit down and chat someday. But the community? I found it very interesting how many people wanted the problem handled privately, back channel, or who affirmed that grotesque as it was, it was kinda juicy and not boring, or who confided similar concerns but dare not risk being on the outs with his community of friends, or wanted to remain friendly with everyone, or what not. One thing I can add, though, is I think the LGBT blogging community handles trolling a whole lot more openly and with less pot-stirring-traffic-scooping than this one does exactly for the reason you suggest--they might be grounded more in not piling on and in being silent when jerky behavior emerges. I don't know, though. I don't even understand who we are possibly talking about all of this within the context of a trip to Bangladesh. It's very, very tangled and sad.
revolution. that's what the intewebz needs. REVOLUTION! maybe they'll be zombies.
as this has begun to calm down, i'm finding myself both sad that it happened in the first place and glad that heather called anna out. she has been so vile to so many people for i can't even remember how long... so selfishly, i'm happy to see her called out. i'm satisfied in a sense.
but i'm also sad. i have been on both sides of this spectrum... i've been the person who has been doubted by what seemed to be the majority. i've also been the person who has gained so much support that i felt i could take on the fucking internet world at large.
i think, at the end of the day, those of us who have been doing this for an extensive amount of time and truly investing ourselves in the lives and words of one another, are connected.
i also think i have a fanfuckingtastic webmaster who can tracks down my trolls in ways that terrify me.
I deny the allegations made above by Deb about locating my motives in traffic baiting and trolling. I had (and still have) opinions about the obesity epidemic and Jen Lancaster and people flocked to read about it. If you take the content of my site as a whole, there is no way I deserve the labels troll or bully.
This is EXACTLY what we're talking about. I'm not going to sit here and not respond to people spreading false information about me. Move on, Deb.
Well written and articulate as usual. I have no suggestions as to how to handle these type of people but it seems to me calling them what they clearly are...Bullies...and calling them out on this behavior is better then keeping silent. It's subtle but there is a difference in calling them out in a defensive way and just stating the facts as you see them. I call it a suredness and has nothing to do with making the bully to see the error of their ways or even recant but clearly saying I will not put up with you. I can't say exactly how to do this but I recognize the feeling when I have it or have seen it, unfortunately it's often after the fact. I think as an adult I'm often surprised when I find the same bullies I encountered as a kid and not a little embarrassed by still feeling hurt by them. Shouldn't I be through with all that? For me acknowledging the fact I am being bullied is the first step in dealing with it.
You know, I come from a school of thought that says if you stand up and swing (whether or not you land a punch), you better steel yourself for a return blow. Basically, you know, be prepared to get as good --or as ill-- as you give.....and don't whine about it if you do, because you started it.
I have a real problem with a pile-on, though. I have defended people I otherwise disagree with because the numbers just weren't fair and there was a lot of below-the-belting happening.
I think, ultimately, we OWE one another respectful discourse. If we can't come to an agreement, we should allow one another the right to move on from an issue and to visit another. We need to have space to disagree without it being a personal affront to do so.
I NEVER had a troll and I was kind of disappointed because I thought..hey , nobody cares what I write. It's inconsequential. I used to joke about not having a troll. THEN one day, I wrote a post in the heat of the moment that was not popular opinion and I found about 50 trolls in a single day. I tried to take the high road but I did defend my opinion. I did notice that when something like this happens, event hose who supported me..emailed me on the side to say so because they were afraid of openly agreeing with me and incurring the wrath of the trolls.
I dont know why people want to attack others for their beliefs, opinions and perspective or personality. I think it's pretty shady. SInce then I have encountered my fair share of trolls on Twitter and FB and occasionally my blog. Thank God for blocking:) I always try to answer their insults with courteous disagreement but sometimes these trolls are relentless. they take some sort of twisted pleasure in ruffling our feathers.
This has been a bizarre phenomenon for me as I don;t ever remember being bullied in my childhood or ever in real life but for some reason people feel safe to be assholes and say things they would not have the nerve to say to ones face when hidden securely behind their computer. I say Throat Punches for the Guardian and for all trolls, I actually handed them one out on my Throat Punch Thursday post:) Why can't they garner their traffic like the rest of us but engaging personalities and well written posts?
Unless I've had an ongoing relationship with someone and then they hit some very soft spot in an especially cruel way, I have not been hurt by anything anyone has said.
On Twitter, I have been attacked (also plagiarized) and I honestly relished fighting back. Few people want to troll me on my blog because I am not enviable there.
I have always been very curious about this phenomenon and sort of fascinated by it. It's weird you post this now because--for some reason--I found Heather's 'monetizing the hate' site the other day and was truly amazed at the venom dumped upon her. I find it interesting. It raises all these questions--are people revealing a dark side to themselves or is it not there without the internet?
I hate to say it but there is a whole nother kind of trolling which is simply attempting to generate a response and hence manipulate others' emotions. It's supposed to be 'only in fun' but of course it is pathological just as these others are.
I have no idea what's going on with this issue--but if people are bitching about her 'poverty tourism' then they can EF off and die. Geez. She went to go meet people in another place and try to understand their lives and then get others to take an interest. Freaking HELL. Americans tend to be so insular and indifferent to the struggles of people in the rest of the world. I thought her post was humble and engaging and could do some good. It had the approach of 'I'm trying to learn about these people and from these people' which seems like a good way to approach something so outside most of our lives--but which we really are morally required to confront.
I'm about as meta and full of pretentious shit as they come and I see nothing objectionable about her concern on this issue and her posts. It just depresses me no end that people would try to turn it into something ugly. So everyone should just go back into their little boxes and never try to meet people who are poor or help them? It's better to spend the weekend at the mall? Fuck that!
Ugh. Sorry for getting off the track of trolls but sometimes I just hate people.
I like Suebob's refinements of the concept "troll". But I'm a philosopher, so I just generally like concept refinement. Maybe you are right to worry that you were mistaken in the advice you gave, not because it was always the wrong advice, but because it assumed there was advice to give. Trolls aren't Level 5 Bosses in a video game that can be defeated in any of six button-mashing ways. Trolls are people. It's people who do this to each other. How do you give someone advice about people? People are insane, persistent, thoughtful, lazy, impetuous, rational, scheming, emotional bags of mess. There's no "Here's how to deal with trolls" answer, although for every person there is a "Here's how YOU, personally, as a person, deal with this other person as a person, with respect to whatever combination of personalities has surfaced in the interactions" answer. The advice can't be about the troll; it has to be about the person you are giving advice to, and it has to depend on that person's goals.
Blah blah blah. Trolls suck.
I'm with BHJ on how to deal with their comments on your blog though. If they just take a little poo in your comment section, turn it into a lollipop. I haven't had many, but when I've had them I just edit their comment to look like they're irrationally in love with me. I've never had return customers.
In first grade I spent a great deal of time being bullied by one particular girl. For over 4-5 years I feared her, yet never gave into her threats. 2 years ago a grade school reunion suddenly came up on facebook. Bully was right there, now married to a prominent, and I mena prominent doctor. I thought, man, everything turned out okay. Except, the scale of her bullying became clear. It was not just those of us that seemed vulnerable, it was the popular girls too. Not one of us had not had a bullying experience with her. It also, turns out, her bullying ways are still the under lying current of her relationships. To me that is truly sad.
At the age of 46, I call bull shit on bull shit, but know the whole time what a troll or bully is saying is not the truth. If they want to engage in real discourse they will and real discourse either ends in a meeting of the minds, or agreeing to disagree. Otherwise, you leave it, because it is not worth your energy or their energy.
Maybe when we are at that point with a troll/bully we end the conversation with NWME (not worth my energy)
However, staying silent is not an option.
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Like BHJ and Backpackingdad, I know take a troll comment on my blog and edit it creatively. I used to let them stand, then I deleted them, and now I'm a revisionist. I've evolved in my troll policy on my blog and I'm sure I will continue to do so. Most troll comments ( and I get a few a week) tend not to bother me. By revising them I feel like I'm stealing their joy and taking back my power.
But I struggle with the trolls like Dooce's troll who writes their venom on their own blogs spreading lies and innuendo where I have no power to fight back. I still debate whether it is best to turn the other cheek or not.
Of course, being bound by a legal gag order still in place does not help facilitate the complete ass kicking and exposing of trolls. But that time is coming. And I will be loud. Anna take note.
I am a z-list blogger, so I doubt if many of you will, care, but I posted about a very insensitive and cruel remark Dooce made not so long ago about how she was feeling so loving towards children that she "understood why mothers in China sometimes keep their kids."
I adopted two kids from China who were dropped off in the street by their mothers, so I guess they didn't make the cut.
I yelled and screamed about that and....nothing. Nobody cared.
So pardon me if I'm not deeply moved by Dooce's trip and if I'm getting a lot of satisfaction about seeing her stage an online meltdown, including real threats against Anna made...if the poster is truthful...because Dooce asked him to.
I'm married to an Indian and belong to a group of folks also in culturally mixed marriages (I call it my Mixed Pickle Support group, or alternatively, the group about Brown Boys and the White Girls Who Love Them. Heh.) Anyway, our group has been attacked by a troll who has dedicated a hate site to her cause. For the past week, I've been firm in my stance that we should not feed the girl's obsession with us and that she will just go away.
I stand corrected and I thank you for writing this. You have given me a new, fresh perspective on why we should be kicking some ass instead of saying nothing. From now on, I will be supporting my group's efforts to get our troll reported to the proper authorities.
I suppose staying silent can have a quiet dignity, but you are right in that it does not accomplish much.
Thank you.
Excellent post. This really made me think about some of my habits.
I think there's a difference between trolls and "people who must be addressed." The more time I spend online, the more I can tell the difference between the two. Trolls are always inflammatory. They rarely have rational, logical thoughts. Their language is full of vitriol and hate. They do not respond in an appropriate manner, and to the people they should be responding to. Instead, they attack the weakest.
But there are people some consider trolls who are really something different. These commenters are usually highly intelligent and rational. But they are extremely passionate, and sometimes that passion clouds their vision. They also tend to lack decent interpersonal skills. These people are worth responding to. Not only can they teach us a lot (often by being our devil's advocate), but in return, they can learn. In fact, they are often willing to learn. It's not that they are bad people or unwilling to have productive discourse, it's just that they have a really lousy way of expressing themselves.
I think you're right -- silence often implies acceptance, and that's not OK. Sticking our head in the sand usually doesn't solve problems. We just need to make sure that when we do decide to respond, we're not feeding trolls; rather, we're having a respectful conversation with the latter type. And if the latter type turns into the former, we need to know when to walk away. By always taking the high road, and always conducting ourselves with dignity and class, our behavior will speak for itself.
I like using the term bullies instead of the term trolls. It seems to call out the behavior in a real-world way, and there is so much awareness about bullying lately that it will maybe shine a different sort of "this is not okay" light on trolling behavior. I don't know, that's my first reaction anyway.
I think that ignoring trolls is common advice and sometimes the only thing to do because trolls feed on more than traffic - they feed on attention and reactions. Not all of them are like this, but some of them seem to be drama lovers who live for causing a dust-up. With those kind, ignoring them seems to be the best thing to do.
But I love the unfailing kindness approach mentioned above - that is what I use with real-life meanies and crankypantses, and I love the effect it has.
Lorrie, your disliking a remark Heather made that was not directed at you in particular is a very different matter from trolling/bullying. I doubt she intended to mean that your children in particular were throwaway children, or that any children were, for that matter.
If a public figure makes a statement you don't like, you are free to state that you don't like it, which you did, but they are not bullying you.
I read a lot of blogs, rarely do I ever post a comment because I truly think its the writers blog and they can write what they think - most of the time. BUT when I see writers (bloggers) writing bold faced lies, or making broad generalized statements that are over the top, I comment. I generally tend to respond in a fashion that is respectful and decent. What happens? I'm automatically labeled a "troll". For no other reason than I disagree with the writer, their opinion on whatever topic they're ranting about. Mean is mean. Bullying is a two way street.
Many big name bloggers are getting paid a decent salary to write their thoughts and opinions, and I applaud them for that. I applaud any smart business woman who is able to work from home and care for her children. BRAVO! And I mean that. I DO think that blogging is a business and it's work. It's not all shits and giggles. I get that too. BUT when you start making a decent salary or any salary from blogging, it's time to toughen up your skin and not take things so personally. It's OK to agree to disagree. It is human nature and there is nothing wrong with it UNLESS or until it becomes personal. When you start attacking the bloggers looks, their kids, their family, then you've gone too far.
Do I think Anna is a shit stirrer? A bit. But Dooce fought back far nastier than she needed to. She could have made her point and then let it be over; instead, she called in "favors" and without a doubt had all her friends in cybersphere come to her defense. It was all a bit much and over the top. I like Dooce; I think she is smart, funny, a good writer and I'm happy she makes a very good living blogging. Her success wasn't all accidental or luck -- there are some brains behind that one. I don't begrudge her any success. I hate that any blogger has actual "trolls". But I don't think every person who disagrees, or leaves a comment that differs from the topic at hand is a troll, either.
I don't have a blog because OH MY GOD my life is so boring what could I possibly write about on an almost daily basis. BUT if I did, I certainly would welcome differing opinions. Personally, I think that was all Anna was doing -- voicing her opinion. I don't think Anna's intention was to attack Dooce personally, but I do believe it was Dooce's intention to attack Anna on any level she could. AND if Dooce wanted to make a point that NOBODY fucks with her, she certainly accomplished that. I lost a little respect for Dooce. Anna doesn't have near the readership that could possibly hurt Dooce in any way, shape or form. Dooce, on the other hand, can wield her power to get almost every single "top blogger" up in arms against Anna. So really, who is the bully? Its one thing to stick up for yourself, quite another to call out "favors" in order to put someone in their place. And I get the feeling that is exactly what Dooce was /is trying to do.
I have always had trolls. It used to be that I would get quite upset about what they said and internalize it for weeks - even months. I am not afraid to admit that. I went through Post Partum Depression and a nervous breakdown quite publicly. I will never forget who stood beside me and held my hand in that darkness.
Things within me majorly changed twice over the subsequent years - first I became guarded and quite standoffish, which did me no favours when new people came into my life and genuinely wanted to be friends. Sam, Casey, & Adam were the ones to crack that proverbial nut. I don't care if the internet turns itself inside out - those three people will be forever my friends.
My most recent change in the last couple or three years, is basically that I blog what I want, when I feel like it, and if I have a troll - or an undefined person like Anna (griefer?) - saying negative things about me etc, it truly does not bother me. I've had many negative comments on my blog regarding real life issues with harassment and date rape at the college, regarding my standing up for several women when they were being approached/harassed by men (yes, plural), and a few weird comments & emails that didn't make sense. At the end of the day, I am rock fucking solid in who I am, and stand behind my beliefs, morals and definitely my writing. I don't write for hits. I write because I enjoy it, when I have the time. I love getting comments but I don't write for validation. I get my validation from my family, my friends and most importantly, myself. I'm pretty damn confident now and there's no way I would allow someone, anonymous or not, to get under my skin the way some of these people try to get under people's skin. They do it because there's something lacking in their own lives - not because of anything you as a writer are doing. If you think about it, it's actually very sad. Like I said on Tracey's blog - It’s 2011 and we still don’t understand mental illness, but we can certainly try.
In the meantime, all you can do for yourself is make sure that in your heart, you are solid in what you are publishing. You know by now who you are. The ugly stuff can be like water off a duck's back, if only you treat it as the garbage that it is. You wouldn't let your friends speak to you in that way - why would you allow a stranger come along and take a shit on your face?
Or something. :)
Great post, E. xoxo
I'm probably repeating what others have said, or maybe not, but I only consider someone a troll if they hide behind anonymity. If they do that, their opinion holds absolutely no water with me, whether it's positive or negative.
Someone like Anna puts her name behind what she says and stands up for her words, so I have respect for that, although I don't respect her methods, her words, and I think she picks on someone for the amount of traffic it will generate for her. She's not a troll, she's not a griefer - she's a fame whore.
I let all comments stand on my site unless they're spam. Words have no power unless you give them power.
This is so well-written. Thank you.
This post made me realize that my own sister is a real-life troll. She sends me ugly letters and drive-by emails, passive-aggressive or aggressive-demanding-accusing by turns. I've been working on letting go of my reactions so I don't get so stressed by it, but I still debate whether I should continue ignoring and disengaging or actually confront her on her nasty behavior. On one hand, it's freeing to disengage from the emotional upheaval. On the other hand, noone ever calls her on her shit, and I'm tired of her thinking it's okay to dump on me.
Family trolls are even harder to get away from. Wish I could figure that one out.
Schmutzie-I realize it wasn't personally directed at ME, but if you were a child who had been dropped off forever in the middle of a street in China by your mother, wouldn't you feel bad after reading that? The only reason I posted about it--I didn't post at the time she made the remark--was that she posted that she was going to be more sensitive only a few weeks after the initial remark and so I responded. Angrily. Never heard back. Didn't expect to.
S'all.
@Marie-I had this situation and I found that the only way to defuse it was a massive confrontation, which was very hard to do, but oh did it work and oh did I feel better. Wish you luck. Email me if you need some moral support.
MARIE--I
....don't know why this comment feature added MARIE-I???? Probably me typing too fast. Best to all of you. Happy 4th. Night!
I just wanted to make it clear that, as far as I know, none of the posts written defending Heather were written because she called in favors as annanone suggested above: "instead, she called in "favors" and without a doubt had all her friends in cybersphere come to her defense." She did not contact me before my post was written and has not since it was written. I think the concept of a Dooce robot army is kind of hilarious, though.
Yes, I should make it clear that this post was not a favour called in by anyone as it was implied. I wrote this as an honest apology to friends I've hurt inadvertently with my advice and as an enquiry into what to do in the blogging community when confronted by negative behaviour.
It's an issue I had brewing personally for some time before any incidents between Viele and Armstrong were apparent, and their public argument simply brought it to the forefront.
Oops. I should have clarified something - I don't think Anna is a troll. Sometimes I agree with her, often I don't. But I don't believe her to be a troll as much as someone who just likes to spout off without regard to the repercussions.
I commented because I appreciated this particular post of yours. It made me rethink trolls in general and specifically, my own troll -- a sad, twisted girl who tried to hide behind anonymity and has made threats toward folks in my particular community.
I've never had a troll, but then again I'm small potatoes in the blog world. Trolls probably don't want to bother.
That said, I appreciate your drawing a comparison to trolls and bullies. They are, in fact, essentially one and the same. Internet trolls, in my opinion, are the online version of the school yard bully or the mean girl. The internet has become a new frontier for the loss of the connection between action and consequence.
As my own daughter draws close to the age where her online social life will begin, I'm ever mindful of this. How can we as parents show our kids how to take a stand in the face of cruelty and derision? Being told to ignore it didn't work for us when we were in school, either. Those of us with an online life ourselves should be able to come up with a way to put troll comments in perspective and their place, and in so doing show our kids how to manage their tormentors, too.
(First time commenter here.)
It's just like real life, isn't it?
Don't say anything, and hope they leave you alone.
That's the same thing that was written as advice in my son's triplicate pamphlet on how to handle a bully.
Be quiet and ignore.
It's super prevalent in online communities - the whole bullying/trolling/whatever. I find it passed off a lot by "I'm entitled to my opinions too" once things get heated. Eventually the threads die, people leave/are hurt, etc. The keyboard seems to delete the barrier (no pun intended) between our brains and our mouth. I see so much more blatant honesty, quick responses, and "true colours" leach out online. Some of those people would be the same in person (I often try to hear their voices in their words) and others really do enjoy the drama, or, watching others squirm.
I don't know what the answer is. Many times I've wanted to "delete the facebook", leave the online world all together, burn my computer, etc etc. But I never do. I really like about 20% of the people I interact with and feel a genuine desire to keep them around. I guess the answer is to shut the computer? Walk away? Accept that 80% of the world is a douche bag/other undesirable jerk off? Most people are most likely good people and just poor thespians online...
Personally - I do enjoy Heather's blog and I'm glad she is standing up for herself. It's her community, her website...if someone came into my castle and took a dump and I had to clean it up, I'd be pissed too. I thought she did an excellent thing by taking that trip and taking on such a huge issue for women world wide. There has to be some compensation for the amount of work that goes into a project like that. It's too bad that not every project in the world can get superstar funding, I just don't doubt that Heather would earn every penny.
I've had my browser open on this post for several days because something about this situation is really bothering me, and it took me that long to figure out what it is. Conflict makes my thinking slow waaaay down, so I hope I make sense here.
It is hard to have untrue and cruel things said about our friends. I imagine it's devastating when it happens to you. I completely agree that we need more civility and that we need better ways to feel safe online. Schmutzie, I hope you don't read what comes next as criticism of that very reasonable desire. It's just that I feel something really important is not being said here.
It seems like there's a general trend towards widening the definition of "troll" to include more and more behaviour that we find disrespectful and hurtful. I am all about being a decent person online (and hopefully offline too) so until recently it never occurred to me that there might be a downside to casting a wider net, but now I'm rethinking that.
I think there are two things (apart from being rude) that seem pretty essential to earning troll status: 1) anonymity and 2) not contributing anything of value to the community. Anna may be incendiary (or worse, sometimes), but she completely fails to meet these other criteria. Whatever people may think of her views, she takes full ownership of them. I would also argue that she brings quite a lot of value to "the community" (I hate that phrase but it will have to do for now). I'm sure many people who have piled on her this week have also downloaded and got some use from her ebook on ad networks, for example.
However, it's as a critical voice that I think she is potentially most valuable. Critical voices are a total pain in the ass, but so is truth, and sometimes there's quite a lot of overlap. And sometimes it's very, very hard to know which is which until we have a chance to cool off and let things settle. This can take an enormous amount of time. I say this as a lifelong hothead.
(And this is where everybody starts throwing rotten eggs at me. That's okay.)
The trouble with knocking the corners off of the definition of "troll" to make it a more convenient fit for certain people is that it's a label that often comes with a license to engage in a little vigilanteism. A troll is like a cockroach, right? Which is why it seems the word needs to be invoked before bringing down the hammer. And in this case the hammer was 1.5 million followers heavy.
There was also an immediate calling in of at least one favour:
http://twitter.com/#!/Mike_FTW/status/86255640997138432
I know that Anna is even poorer candidate for the victim label than the troll label, but isn't there some irony in threatening to "unleash hell" on someone who is 26 weeks pregnant in the context of defending the aims of Every Mother Counts?
If trolls = bullies, I'm confused by who is who in this situation.
And speaking of Every Mother Counts, if I think about this Twitter fight in its larger (global) context I get sadder and sadder, and more and more issues that I need to think about for a long time pop up. So I'll stop here.
René, I did not claim that Viele is a troll in this situation. I think troll is an extreme word and find bullying much more useful here. In fact, I think that the term troll is best folded up and tossed away, because what we are really discussing is bullying.
I would not label Viele a troll, myself. I see her behaviour as baiting and attention-grabbing, being that she chooses to "speak out" on topics before she takes steps to find out the actual facts sometimes. I do definitely see her behaviour as settling quite tidily into the bullying category, though.
I do believe that a critical voice can be a huge asset to a community, but only if that voice warrants trust. When a person continually pops out with assumptions or hearsay without establishing the facts from the individuals in question before declaring the rumours in public, then it's not really criticism, is it? It's more a public disclosure of rumours.
I'm not saying that her content in this regard is always baseless, but if a person is going to define themselves as someone who asks the hard questions, it's hard to muster any serious respect for what they do when the so-called criticism has all too often in the past been little more than conjecture tossed out for the masses to feast on.
That said, I don't know that piling on Viele is the right way to handle the situation, either, which is why I wrote this article. I wanted to open up a discussion about bullying in general on the internet and how we handle it.
Great post Rene. I think you have summed it up very eloquently.
BTW:
http://injury.findlaw.com/assault-and-battery/elements-of-assault.html
An act intended to cause an apprehension of harmful or offensive contact.
An act that causes apprehension in the victim that harmful or offensive contact is imminent.
Words, without an act, cannot constitute an assault. For example, no assault has occurred where a person waves his arms at another and shouts, "I'm going to shoot you!" where no gun is visible or apparent. However, if the threatening words are accompanied by some action that indicates the perpetrator has the ability to carry out a threat, an assault has occurred. It is an assault where a person threatens to shoot another while pointing a gun, even where the victim later learns that the gun was not loaded. Moreover, pointing a gun without an accompanying verbal threat is still an assault, assuming the victim saw the gun.
Assault requires intent, meaning that there has been a deliberate, unjustified interference with the personal right or liberty of another in a way that causes harm. In the tort of assault, intent is established if a reasonable person is substantially certain that certain consequences will result; intent is established whether or not he or she actually intends those consequences to result.
Pointing a gun at someone's head is substantially certain to result in apprehension for the victim. In criminal law, intent means acting with a criminal or wrongful purpose. Criminal assault statutes often speak of acting "purposely," "knowingly," "recklessly," or "negligently." Acting negligently means to grossly deviate from the standards of normal conduct. Some criminal assault statutes recognize only "purposely," "knowingly," and "recklessly" as the level of intent required to establish that an offense occurred.
The victim must have a reasonable apprehension of imminent injury or offensive contact. This element is established if the act would produce apprehension in the mind of a reasonable person. Apprehension is not the same as fear. Apprehension means awareness that an injury or offensive contact is imminent. Whether an act would create apprehension in the mind of a reasonable person varies depending upon the circumstances.
For example, it may take less to create apprehension in the mind of a child than an adult. Moreover, if a victim is unaware of the threat of harm, no assault has occurred. An assailant who points a gun at a sleeping person has not committed an assault. Finally, the threat must be imminent, meaning impending or about to occur. Threatening to kill someone at a later date would not constitute an assault.